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so. lets talk orcs...

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Jan 24 12 10:28 PM

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what do know about them? What colour is their skin? what are your impressions of them? How do you see them equipped? How do you see them as fighting troops in large pitched battles? How do you think their units, or whatever, were organised?.What are their strengths? What are their weaknesses? How would you organise them for a tabletop experience? What is the best set of rules(game system) in your opinion to handle their imagined behaviour? What ground time scale do you think best suits playing with an orc force and following that what figure ratio seems most ideal to you?
I am thinking Tolkien orcs myself but all thoughts about the narrative are welcome .....I have a project...


&
"You have no respect for excessive authority or obsolete traditions. You're dangerous and depraved, and you ought to be taken outside and shot!" Joseph Heller
&

"Whew. Man, look, I gotta get out of here, man. Now we - we got things we want to do, man, like - I just - uh - I gotta get out of here, man."
&
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#1 [url]

Jan 25 12 11:36 AM

Re: so. lets talk orcs...

what do know about them?
I like the LOTR Tolkien version of them, dwellers of dark places, ruthless, crule and vile creatures, hell spawn, man eaters.......living in the dark corners of the world

What colour is their skin?
For the Orcs above ground dark and medium brown skins with skin the texture and shades of leather.

underground
grey and light browns

what are your impressions of them?
Uruk Hai

The largest of the orcs the true fighting core of the army, all of the chieftains are members of this fighting elite the toughest and meanest of them all, they are aggressive and rule the tribes with a iron fist, they encourage the smaller orcs, who look up to them to bring them glory and riches on the battlefield. battle scared with honour scars and the best armour

Orcs
tribal, cunning and ruthless, fond of war and pillaging, they follow great war chieftains (Uruk-Hai) are loyal to their clans and are honor bound to the chief, proud of thier chieftans war prowess

How do you see them equipped?
lightly armoured scale or lamellar bone or leather armour, medium sized timber shields of different shapes, some covered in animal hides, Javelins, thrusting spear and short swords, a small amount of orcs could be armed with short bows.

How do you see them as fighting troops in large pitched battles?
following a war chieftain in groups using weight of numbers to overwhelm the enemy sheildwall's, a small amount of skirmishers throwing javelin to break up the enemy infantry. The Uruk-Hai leading the arrowhead (boars snout) formation in its attempt to break the human or Elf shield walls.


How do you think their units, or whatever, were organised?
A tribal grouping following a small core of Uruk Hai warriors, with a chieftan who may have a pet mountain of cave troll as a status symbol, tribal bickering was not un-common especially among the tribes from the misty mountains and the orcs from Minas Morgol (orc eaters!) all looking towards the Ring Wraiths for overall general ship

What are their strengths?

tough and loyal to their chieftain and tribe.

What are their weaknesses?

do not like bright light, hatred for elves and dwarfs so will attack without orders, will stop and pillage, will falter if attacked by cavalry, will flee if chieftain is killed.

How would you organise them for a tabletop experience?

deep wave attack formations, with skirmishers out in front.


What is the best set of rules(game system) in your opinion to handle their imagined behaviour?

Impetus or any large based Diorama type rules.

What ground time scale do you think best suits playing with an orc force and following that what figure ratio seems most ideal to you?

1 to 30 or 50


I am thinking Tolkien orcs myself but all thoughts about the narrative are welcome .....I have a project...

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Tarty

Posts: 283 Lieutenant

#2 [url]

Jan 25 12 12:30 PM

Re: so. lets talk orcs...

Yes Tolkien Orcs, the rest is bullshit ! Black skin black things black armour black black black black everything.......black ! Twisted hateful vile things, no social structure just pure anarchy. " Every Orc for himself " aaaaaaaaarg ! Units in the very loosest sense of the word, more like warbands if anything, controlled by fear alone. Uruk Hai should be just bigger versions with a higher opinion of themselves, and an even more selfish bunch of evil arseholes. Impetus would work well, just fiddle with the command structure a little.

Language is a virus from outer space.

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#4 [url]

Jan 25 12 1:09 PM

Re: so. lets talk orcs...

though not like Carthaginians in other respects..Alan Garner in his novels http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Garner captures them well..he uses the OE term Svart...or Svart -Aelfheim..( the word is still extant in Norse languages http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/svart) which essentially mean s "darK or black " and "dark,or black elves"..theO E svart survives in the ME swarthy so dark skin, pr swarthy seems apt..Skirmishers Willow???? a svarty Sharpe and Harper out the front? You have been spending too much time in the Napoleonic world deep columns covered by skirmishers?..I don't think so.. in the Dark age Concept only the poor , the weak ,the unarmored or the very young or old came anywhere near to skirmishing and that was by accident...nobody worth their salt would wish to be very far from the leader, otherwise their great acts of glory may go unnoticed and they would miss out on their reward..I suspect orcs to be no different..you might get slaves , prisoners or the condemned pushed out in front to soak up some casualties but only losers would be found skirmishing...obviously the great mythical and historical leaders of the time couldn't read ( not uncommon) and hence the subtleties of the rules were lost on them..one of the weakness ess of them would be their incredible parochialism..a massed parade must have been a nightmare, all these vicious, well armed ,paranoid, highly egotistical groups ,touchy and easily indignant competing in one place!!!! a bloodbath..right more ..


&
"You have no respect for excessive authority or obsolete traditions. You're dangerous and depraved, and you ought to be taken outside and shot!" Joseph Heller
&

"Whew. Man, look, I gotta get out of here, man. Now we - we got things we want to do, man, like - I just - uh - I gotta get out of here, man."
&
dare pondus idonea fumo
Fit only to give weight to smoke

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#5 [url]

Jan 25 12 1:13 PM

Re: so. lets talk orcs...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svart%C3%A ... A1lfaheimr
and more your ideas on their appearance? Their social skills, Their interaction with the World at large..Their purpose?


&
"You have no respect for excessive authority or obsolete traditions. You're dangerous and depraved, and you ought to be taken outside and shot!" Joseph Heller
&

"Whew. Man, look, I gotta get out of here, man. Now we - we got things we want to do, man, like - I just - uh - I gotta get out of here, man."
&
dare pondus idonea fumo
Fit only to give weight to smoke

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#6 [url]

Jan 25 12 1:17 PM

Re: so. lets talk orcs...

and how does this all bear upon the Goblin situations?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goblin


&
"You have no respect for excessive authority or obsolete traditions. You're dangerous and depraved, and you ought to be taken outside and shot!" Joseph Heller
&

"Whew. Man, look, I gotta get out of here, man. Now we - we got things we want to do, man, like - I just - uh - I gotta get out of here, man."
&
dare pondus idonea fumo
Fit only to give weight to smoke

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#7 [url]

Jan 25 12 2:22 PM

Re: so. lets talk orcs...

Cardinal Hawkwood wrote:
though not like Carthaginians in other respects..Alan Garner in his novels http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Garner captures them well..he uses the OE term Svart...or Svart -Aelfheim..( the word is still extant in Norse languages http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/svart) which essentially mean s "darK or black " and "dark,or black elves"..theO E svart survives in the ME swarthy so dark skin..


Carthaginians were black as well...here's the proof

http://www.bnvillage.co.uk/black-roots-village/70401-great-african-kings-queens-leaders.html

[quote]Hannibal is said to be the greatest military leader and strategist of all time. Hannibal was born in 247 B.C., when Carthage, then the maritime power, was beginning to decline. The Carthaginians were descendants of the Phoenicians, who were great Black merchants. They traded with India and the people of the Mediterranean, and the Scilly Isles.

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#8 [url]

Jan 25 12 2:34 PM

Re: so. lets talk orcs...

Cardinal Hawkwood wrote:
a massed parade must have been a nightmare, all these vicious, well armed ,paranoid, highly egotistical groups ,touchy and easily indignant competing in one place!!!! a bloodbath..right more ..


That sounds about right, I imagine any commander who tries to get an orc parade deserves exactly what he gets.

I have always imagined most orcs as twisted parodies of elves as per Tolkien. The Uruk Hai are different though they are a mix of orc and man I believe, bigger stronger and able to stand the light of the sun.

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Tarty

Posts: 283 Lieutenant

#9 [url]

Jan 25 12 5:20 PM

Re: so. lets talk orcs...

akula_au wrote:
Cardinal Hawkwood wrote:
a massed parade must have been a nightmare, all these vicious, well armed ,paranoid, highly egotistical groups ,touchy and easily indignant competing in one place!!!! a bloodbath..right more ..


That sounds about right, I imagine any commander who tries to get an orc parade deserves exactly what he gets.

I have always imagined most orcs as twisted parodies of elves as per Tolkien. The Uruk Hai are different though they are a mix of orc and man I believe, bigger stronger and able to stand the light of the sun.

Mordor had their own Uruk Hai as well didn't they ? little different than the Uruks of the white hand ( the book I'm talkn here ) don't know if they liked the sun so much, but still a nasty bunch of toe rags. I've got some old Kreigspiel Uruk Hai from the early eighties, still my favourite figs even now. Will post some picks when I get back.

Language is a virus from outer space.

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#10 [url]

Jan 25 12 7:48 PM

Re: so. lets talk orcs...

I don't think Mordor had Uruk Hai, I'm pretty sure they are the creations of Saruman

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Tarty

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#11 [url]

Jan 25 12 8:38 PM

Re: so. lets talk orcs...

akula_au wrote:
I don't think Mordor had Uruk Hai, I'm pretty sure they are the creations of Saruman


In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black Orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath.

The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix A, Annals of the Kings and Rulers: Gondor and the Heirs of AnĂ¡rion: The Stewards

I wasn't sure myself akula, but no they were bred in Mordor first apparently. It's been a while since I read the book.

Language is a virus from outer space.

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#14 [url]

Jan 25 12 9:59 PM

Re: so. lets talk orcs...

akula_au wrote:
Cardinal Hawkwood wrote:
a massed parade must have been a nightmare, all these vicious, well armed ,paranoid, highly egotistical groups ,touchy and easily indignant competing in one place!!!! a bloodbath..right more ..


That sounds about right, I imagine any commander who tries to get an orc parade deserves exactly what he gets.

I have always imagined most orcs as twisted parodies of elves as per Tolkien. The Uruk Hai are different though they are a mix of orc and man I believe, bigger stronger and able to stand the light of the sun.

yes in my Orc & Reason world if one group of orcs falls back from a melee and collides ( incapable of interpenetration)with another orc unit you don't take one SP off each, you fight it out with the retreating unit counting -3 for being attacked in the rear..also commanders of orcs will be burning CDs to keep them from attacking each other..bvest to get them to go straight ahead and into action as fast aspossible ..with the second line to the rar..if the second line gets attack order roll then it will attack any friendly unit to its front, unless a CD is spent to stop that sort of thing , ..ah trouble brewing on the table top but fun indeed ..


&
"You have no respect for excessive authority or obsolete traditions. You're dangerous and depraved, and you ought to be taken outside and shot!" Joseph Heller
&

"Whew. Man, look, I gotta get out of here, man. Now we - we got things we want to do, man, like - I just - uh - I gotta get out of here, man."
&
dare pondus idonea fumo
Fit only to give weight to smoke

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#15 [url]

Jan 25 12 10:03 PM

Re: so. lets talk orcs...

akula_au wrote:
Makes sense, the Oleg Hai came from Mordor as well didn't they

I think they are the Oleg Hai..a "brigade " of the bigger Warlords orcs in black skins and armour..and I am going to rate the morgul vale orcs a bit better than the others.. also some orc "brigades" will include a hill troll or two on their base and these will be 1) grater SP and 2) cause terror..( a -2 or 3) if yopu have a unit facing one of these units and you are alos flanked you will fight at a minus 5...though Vanden burgers wouldn't be concerned..did I mention....


&
"You have no respect for excessive authority or obsolete traditions. You're dangerous and depraved, and you ought to be taken outside and shot!" Joseph Heller
&

"Whew. Man, look, I gotta get out of here, man. Now we - we got things we want to do, man, like - I just - uh - I gotta get out of here, man."
&
dare pondus idonea fumo
Fit only to give weight to smoke

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#17 [url]

Jan 25 12 10:10 PM

Re: so. lets talk orcs...

well that is the skill ...they are orcs after all ..they also are quite fast, faster than human units on foot and quite a lot more difficult in rough terrain///though the idea of a n orc/elf battle totaly in a wood or forest would be quite something!!!


&
"You have no respect for excessive authority or obsolete traditions. You're dangerous and depraved, and you ought to be taken outside and shot!" Joseph Heller
&

"Whew. Man, look, I gotta get out of here, man. Now we - we got things we want to do, man, like - I just - uh - I gotta get out of here, man."
&
dare pondus idonea fumo
Fit only to give weight to smoke

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#18 [url]

Jan 25 12 10:12 PM

Re: so. lets talk orcs...

and for your consideration gentlemen...missle weapons, ?if they are common how do think they are organised(if such a word is appropriate to orc bands) and what are they? and did they skirmish??????


&
"You have no respect for excessive authority or obsolete traditions. You're dangerous and depraved, and you ought to be taken outside and shot!" Joseph Heller
&

"Whew. Man, look, I gotta get out of here, man. Now we - we got things we want to do, man, like - I just - uh - I gotta get out of here, man."
&
dare pondus idonea fumo
Fit only to give weight to smoke

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#19 [url]

Jan 25 12 10:20 PM

Re: so. lets talk orcs...

Cardinal Hawkwood wrote:
well that is the skill ...they are orcs after all ..they also are quite fast, faster than human units on foot and quite a lot more difficult in rough terrain///though the idea of a n orc/elf battle totaly in a wood or forest would be quite something!!!


I am sure that at one point JJRT says that they were of less stamina than men.I will dig around and see if i can find the reference

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#20 [url]

Jan 25 12 10:43 PM

Re: so. lets talk orcs...

yes if you can find references the please "footnote"
and was it an Oleg Hai that Pippin killed in the Battle at the Gates of Mordor??? was he still in the Citadel Guard , did they leave the Tower and take the field? that would look good..


&
"You have no respect for excessive authority or obsolete traditions. You're dangerous and depraved, and you ought to be taken outside and shot!" Joseph Heller
&

"Whew. Man, look, I gotta get out of here, man. Now we - we got things we want to do, man, like - I just - uh - I gotta get out of here, man."
&
dare pondus idonea fumo
Fit only to give weight to smoke

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